Well said. Provocative, balanced and insightful. Thanks for challenging the status-quo and keep up the good work.

I think I pay attention and keep my ear on the rail but this is the first time I’ve heard of the idea of cutting out some of the layers of SBC organization.

Now that I’ve had a chance reflect on this, I acknowledge that some re-org is both inevitable and desirable. However, this transition is not going to be a walk in the park because of the impact on affected workers.

I don’t think it is written in stone that we have to have a four-layer organizational structure in SBC life: (a) local church, (b) associations, (c) state conventions, and (d) national operations (NAMB, IMB, Seminaries, executive committee). To me, the number one item is the local church. Number two is nationwide stuff such as the NAMB, IMB and the seminaries since many (most?) local churches could not duplicate these operations.

Whatever happens, I think we all agree that the idea of pooled giving via the CP is a core element of equipping missionaries in the SBC. Some non-SBC Baptist church denominations require potential mission candidates to “raise their own support” which can take several years. We can’t regress by going to any type of “granular” funding model.

Over time, churches will evaluate how to fund missions based upon a cost/benefit analysis between the alternatives that are available. I’m a little slow, but I have to concede your point. Namely, that the CP option will no longer be “competitive” if is “overloaded” with tons of overhead.

We will probably see what is now under the CP umbrella tend go in two separate directions over time: (a) missions operations such as the IMB and NAMB as well as the seminaries will probably continue to be financed by the CP; (b) other things such as retreats / camps / seminars, youth residential homes, and financial help for low income retired pastors will be financed a-la-carte from churches or using user fees.

Church-work, church-politics and convention bureaucracy have my stomach turned at the moment. I can’t believe how much money and energy is wasted on ‘good’ programs and not used for the ‘best.’ The ‘best’ being winning the lost to Christ. The goal of the church and the denomination should be to equip the saints for the work of the ministry… (I read that somewhere). The money that comes into the church should be used for that purpose and to GO into the world to win the lost. Many of the dollars spent go toward ’stuff’ and do not further the cause of Christ. It is time for many more to wake up to this reality.

I am excited about the future with Christ, but unsure of the future of local associations and possibly the future of denominations. One-hundred years or more ago, these organizations were critical to the survival of the church and the people. Today, these are mostly holes in the ground into which we pour money for salaries and programs that have very little eternal ROI.

BTW, I am not mad, and I am currently not doing anything about these issues either. I have just observed them and agree with this article… and am praying for an answer… Lord Jesus, come quickly…

Bill,
I am thankful for young pastor who are trying to reform and fine tune the SBC. We have been plateaued for years and according to LifeWay are now in decline. Or read Frank Page in the “Incredible Shrinking Church.” Why not be open to reassessment?

This is a quote from last week’s Messenger [April 2, 2009], “[CP giving] . . . also provide[s] funding for the matching retirement contributions provided to qualifying ministers in the Chruch Retirement Plan, partial funding for disability and survivor protection benefits for qualifying church employees in the Church Retirement Plan and partial funding for the BGCO Regional Tax Seminars”. To some extent, the BGCO serves like a human resources department for pastors and church staff in the state of Oklahoma. The person who administers this for the BGCO is an “information services specialist”. In addition to handling matters relating to retirement and insurance for churches he also handles the compliation of the Annual Church Profile from Oklahoma.

Also there is a “Childhood Ministry specialist” with the BGCO who does things such as set up training for VBS teachers in various places throughout the state.

Another person at the BGCO is a “prayer and spiritual awakening specialist”

My bottom line: don’t give me the job of trying to cut back on ‘bureaucracy’ here in Oklahoma that is ‘diverting CP dollars’ because that would be one tough job.

I’m one BtT reader who would like to see a worked out example of eliminating ‘bureaucracy’ in the state conventions. One thing I think could be done away with is the preparation of the Annual Church Profile. Here in Oklahoma that would save less than one man-month of labor cost borne by CP gifts per year.

Yesterday, I took my wife to a health food store on the corner of NW63rd and May in Oklahoma City. When we go there we go by the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma HQ building which is on May just a couple of blocks south of I-44. That building is a SIX STORY building. As we went by there, I was thinking about several comments here on BtT regarding that fact that quite a bit of CP money never gets outside the state where it is given. There were at least 50 cars in the parking lot of that building. Probably some of them were visitors and unpaid volunteers but most of them were probably on the staff of the BGCO.

The BGCO has a number of “specialists” that assist in various ministry aspects in Oklahoma. The BGCO owns/operates a camp called Falls Creek. The BGCO has a number of homes for youth such as the “Boys Ranch”.

All of the funding for these operations DOES NOT come from CP funds. Falls Creek charges those who attend the various youth camps. Also, people give money to finance huge capital campaigns. Just a few weeks ago in the Oklahoma Baptist Messenger there was a story about an anonymous gift of $1,000,000 to pay for part of the construction cost of the new “tabernacle” at Falls Creek.

The BGCO has the “singing churchman” and the “singing churchwomen” which consists of singers from churches all over Oklahoma. They are not on the BGCO payroll but some of their costs or staffing are probably borne by the BGCO.

The BGCO has a couple of people who do news operations including publishing the Baptist Messenger. However the Messenger does sell subscriptions and ads which pay for at least part of the cost of publishing it.

Here are the titles of some people who are on the payroll of the BGCO that I gleaned from just one issue (April 9, 2009) of the Baptist Messenger:

Executive Director-Treasurer

Managing Editor

Associate Editor

Advertising Manager

Senior Associate Executive Director

Director of Stewardship/Cooperative Program/associational relations (that is all one title)

BGCO Student Ministry and Education Specialist

College director for Oklahoma City college campuses — OSU-OKC, Rose State, OCU and OU Heath Sciences Center. According to the article on page 5 of April 9th Messenger describing this work on OKC area college campuses it states that “the Cooperative Program not only pays his salary and program expenses [the college director] but also has made it possible to add another person for the five campuses. The CP dollar stretches farther and reaches more people than any other dollar given.”

Also, I know that the BGCO has a “Men’s Ministry Specialist” because I know him personally

I don’t agree that all the people that work in this building and/or for the BGCO elsewhere are “bureaucracy”. In fact, I know some of these people personally and they are doing first class work.

I don’t know if the state conventions should cut back on ministires and manpower to beef up the seminaries and the IMB or not. That question is way over my pay grade. But I think it is obvious that running the state conventions associated with the SBC requires more than pocket change.

thanks for a well-written statement. i concur! it’s put up or shut up (on the BIBLE alone) time for so many of us.

btw, we attend a non-denominational church now and the detox has been good. i still love my SBC family, but i see ministry done on a regular basis now. sometimes its good to step back and truly observe.