Comments on: The Return of the Curmudgeon: Disney-World Worship (Part 2): Musical Disproportionality http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/05/15/the-return-of-the-curmudgeon-disney-world-worship-part-2-musical-disproportionality/ Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:13:15 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Tony Brown http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/05/15/the-return-of-the-curmudgeon-disney-world-worship-part-2-musical-disproportionality/comment-page-1/#comment-6101 Tony Brown Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:06:54 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=681#comment-6101 I don't know If I said it already but ...Cool site, love the info. I do a lot of research online on a daily basis and for the most part, people lack substance but, I just wanted to make a quick comment to say I'm glad I found your blog. Thanks, :) A definite great read..Tony Brown I don’t know If I said it already but …Cool site, love the info. I do a lot of research online on a daily basis and for the most part, people lack substance but, I just wanted to make a quick comment to say I’m glad I found your blog. Thanks, :)

A definite great read..Tony Brown

]]> By: David Nelson http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/05/15/the-return-of-the-curmudgeon-disney-world-worship-part-2-musical-disproportionality/comment-page-1/#comment-583 David Nelson Sat, 30 May 2009 14:31:52 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=681#comment-583 I want to add one final point. I've had a lot of responses to this post, and some have been via email or in person. I want to make an observation about the nature of the responses. I've had many say to me something like, "You are so right about this. I find myself just wanting the music to be over each week at church." Interestingly, the majority of those who object to my point about this are musicians. And this is a point I didn't think to make, but should have. It's easy for those of us who are musicians, and especially those of us leading the music, to enjoy all the music we do. It's like singing a Bach cantata - it's a blast for the singers, but the audience may not enjoy it to the same extent. So, we who lead need to put ourselves in the pew, so to speak, more often. Preachers should do this, and musicians should to. The sermon may not be so great if you're not preaching it. The music may not be so great if you're not leading it. Just a thought . . . I want to add one final point. I’ve had a lot of responses to this post, and some have been via email or in person. I want to make an observation about the nature of the responses. I’ve had many say to me something like, “You are so right about this. I find myself just wanting the music to be over each week at church.” Interestingly, the majority of those who object to my point about this are musicians. And this is a point I didn’t think to make, but should have. It’s easy for those of us who are musicians, and especially those of us leading the music, to enjoy all the music we do. It’s like singing a Bach cantata – it’s a blast for the singers, but the audience may not enjoy it to the same extent. So, we who lead need to put ourselves in the pew, so to speak, more often. Preachers should do this, and musicians should to. The sermon may not be so great if you’re not preaching it. The music may not be so great if you’re not leading it. Just a thought . . .

]]> By: David Nelson http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/05/15/the-return-of-the-curmudgeon-disney-world-worship-part-2-musical-disproportionality/comment-page-1/#comment-582 David Nelson Sat, 30 May 2009 14:27:59 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=681#comment-582 Brian, Thanks for weighing in. Let me offer a couple of thoughts of my own: No, I don’t think I’d think differently about it if it was “Nelson Favorites.” I’ve been there, done that, and still think that’s disproportionate. Did I say that the quantity-quality distinction is unrelated.? Surely they are related. My point is that in some congregations we use music disproportionately compared to other elements of the service. I’ll stick with that claim. I think it’s fairly easy to demonstrate. Yes, singing songs sometimes takes time, and slower songs, if they have multiple verses or if repeated several times will take a longer amount of time. A prayer may also be extensive, as may a Scripture reading of a lengthy Psalm, for example. And, of course, sermons tend to be longer in our tradition, at least in some parts of it, and certainly some are (or seem) longer than others. I simply want us to think through the liturgical structures we employ. My fear is that we think less about the whole than we should, or, we think that the whole is largely about music and a sermon. I wasn’t a curmudgeon at all in the book. Creation is capable of expressing the nature of God, to the extent that it can. And different parts of nature display God’s glory in differing ways and with differing capacities. I suppose music is the same. Some music does a better job of it than other music does. My point is a simple one: Let’s use more music that does a better job of reflecting the nature of God and the truths of Scripture. I doubt anyone thinks “What a Mighty God We Serve” displays God’s greatness quite like “How Great Thou Art.” Oh, I’m sure someone might argue otherwise, but really. I’m a musical eclectic when it comes to these matters, but my disappointment is that we choose to use so much trite music that is just really bad at the textual and the musical levels. We can and should do better at this. Brian,
Thanks for weighing in. Let me offer a couple of thoughts of my own:
No, I don’t think I’d think differently about it if it was “Nelson Favorites.” I’ve been there, done that, and still think that’s disproportionate. Did I say that the quantity-quality distinction is unrelated.? Surely they are related. My point is that in some congregations we use music disproportionately compared to other elements of the service. I’ll stick with that claim. I think it’s fairly easy to demonstrate.
Yes, singing songs sometimes takes time, and slower songs, if they have multiple verses or if repeated several times will take a longer amount of time. A prayer may also be extensive, as may a Scripture reading of a lengthy Psalm, for example. And, of course, sermons tend to be longer in our tradition, at least in some parts of it, and certainly some are (or seem) longer than others. I simply want us to think through the liturgical structures we employ. My fear is that we think less about the whole than we should, or, we think that the whole is largely about music and a sermon.
I wasn’t a curmudgeon at all in the book.
Creation is capable of expressing the nature of God, to the extent that it can. And different parts of nature display God’s glory in differing ways and with differing capacities. I suppose music is the same. Some music does a better job of it than other music does. My point is a simple one: Let’s use more music that does a better job of reflecting the nature of God and the truths of Scripture. I doubt anyone thinks “What a Mighty God We Serve” displays God’s greatness quite like “How Great Thou Art.” Oh, I’m sure someone might argue otherwise, but really. I’m a musical eclectic when it comes to these matters, but my disappointment is that we choose to use so much trite music that is just really bad at the textual and the musical levels. We can and should do better at this.

]]> By: For those of you who have ever felt guilty about wishing the singing in church would just end… « Long Obedience http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/05/15/the-return-of-the-curmudgeon-disney-world-worship-part-2-musical-disproportionality/comment-page-1/#comment-530 For those of you who have ever felt guilty about wishing the singing in church would just end… « Long Obedience Wed, 27 May 2009 19:35:45 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=681#comment-530 [...] For those of you who have ever felt guilty about wishing the singing in church would just end… From David Nelson in Between the Times… [...] [...] For those of you who have ever felt guilty about wishing the singing in church would just end… From David Nelson in Between the Times… [...]

]]> By: David Nelson: “A Curmudgeon on Evangelical Worship” « Matt Capps Blog http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/05/15/the-return-of-the-curmudgeon-disney-world-worship-part-2-musical-disproportionality/comment-page-1/#comment-513 David Nelson: “A Curmudgeon on Evangelical Worship” « Matt Capps Blog Tue, 26 May 2009 20:21:50 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=681#comment-513 [...] The Return of the Curmudgeon: Disney-World Worship (Part 2): Musical Disproportionality [...] [...] The Return of the Curmudgeon: Disney-World Worship (Part 2): Musical Disproportionality [...]

]]> By: Brian Megilligan http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/05/15/the-return-of-the-curmudgeon-disney-world-worship-part-2-musical-disproportionality/comment-page-1/#comment-453 Brian Megilligan Sat, 23 May 2009 14:23:23 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=681#comment-453 Just a couple of for-what-its-worth thoughts: I wonder if your quantity vs quality distinction are artificially made into separate issues and instead are more related than you let on. I bet you wouldn't mind at all the quantity of music in a worship service if the songs were 1) songs that you liked, 2)done with excellence, and 3) completely familiar and totally engaging those around you. Forty minutes of "Nelson's Favorites" could feel like 15 minutes and you'd be surprised! Another dimension of "singing to the Lord" vs "speaking to the Lord" is that singing a melody (and rhythm) forces everyone into the same rhythmic cadence, which makes singing a fairly easy thing for a large group of people to do together--provided they know the song. Also, we could say that music consumes a disproportionate amount of time in a worship service, but songs take longer to "execute" than other standard elements of [Baptist] liturgy. Some may argue (you may be one of them) they take too much time, but that's not my point as much as the nature of singing a slow-tempo song with several verses and a couple choruses will take longer than passing the plate, or dunking someone in the baptismal pool. You using this post to plug your book contribution is sneaky. I decided I needed to have the proper context so I ordered the book, read your chapter, and now feel that I have a stronger context for reading your post. You're not as Crumudgeony as you were hoping, I'm afraid. Finally, DWW, a term I think I'll use from now on, is criticized here for its lack of transcendence, and misrepresentation of immanence. You write, "On the other hand, this music is also inadequate with respect to divine immanence. That God, the Holy One who is high and exalted is above us and beyond us, yet also near, with, and among his people who are contrite and approach the Lord in the name of Christ is one of the most precious truths of the faith." My question is this: what music of any epoch has ever come close to achieving this? Just a couple of for-what-its-worth thoughts:

I wonder if your quantity vs quality distinction are artificially made into separate issues and instead are more related than you let on. I bet you wouldn’t mind at all the quantity of music in a worship service if the songs were 1) songs that you liked, 2)done with excellence, and 3) completely familiar and totally engaging those around you. Forty minutes of “Nelson’s Favorites” could feel like 15 minutes and you’d be surprised!

Another dimension of “singing to the Lord” vs “speaking to the Lord” is that singing a melody (and rhythm) forces everyone into the same rhythmic cadence, which makes singing a fairly easy thing for a large group of people to do together–provided they know the song. Also, we could say that music consumes a disproportionate amount of time in a worship service, but songs take longer to “execute” than other standard elements of [Baptist] liturgy. Some may argue (you may be one of them) they take too much time, but that’s not my point as much as the nature of singing a slow-tempo song with several verses and a couple choruses will take longer than passing the plate, or dunking someone in the baptismal pool.

You using this post to plug your book contribution is sneaky. I decided I needed to have the proper context so I ordered the book, read your chapter, and now feel that I have a stronger context for reading your post. You’re not as Crumudgeony as you were hoping, I’m afraid.

Finally, DWW, a term I think I’ll use from now on, is criticized here for its lack of transcendence, and misrepresentation of immanence. You write, “On the other hand, this music is also inadequate with respect to divine immanence. That God, the Holy One who is high and exalted is above us and beyond us, yet also near, with, and among his people who are contrite and approach the Lord in the name of Christ is one of the most precious truths of the faith.” My question is this: what music of any epoch has ever come close to achieving this?

]]> By: Jonathan http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/05/15/the-return-of-the-curmudgeon-disney-world-worship-part-2-musical-disproportionality/comment-page-1/#comment-388 Jonathan Wed, 20 May 2009 19:58:59 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=681#comment-388 Maybe Ed, Bruce, and Ryan will sing a Stryper classic to kick off the faculty workshop..."To Hell WIth the Devil"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KubgMDSMXfI Maybe Ed, Bruce, and Ryan will sing a Stryper classic to kick off the faculty workshop…”To Hell WIth the Devil”…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KubgMDSMXfI

]]> By: Roger Simpson http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/05/15/the-return-of-the-curmudgeon-disney-world-worship-part-2-musical-disproportionality/comment-page-1/#comment-373 Roger Simpson Tue, 19 May 2009 15:18:29 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=681#comment-373 Guys: One last thing. I'm not making excuses for old guys of my generation who check out on church (or go to some other local congregation) just because they don't like "this modern music". What I'm saying is that independent of style: whether it is disco, hip-hop, Gregorian chants, Reggae, industrial rock, acid rock, soft rock, Bach Cantatas, or stuff from the Broadman Hymnal I believe the key thing about music for congregational singing is that it should focus on both (a) being relatively simple to learn and sing, and (b) have words with "thelogical content". Both requirements (a) and (b) for congregational singing are transgenerational. I believe a lot of the so-called "culture wars" with music in church are a waste of time because the music being fought over does not meet requirements (a) and (b) independent of its style. If you exclude music that doesn't make the cut then you don't have to fight over it. As a side benefit, people of all ages will actually be able to sing the congregational music and benefit from it. There will still be some residual "culture wars" going on which I believe are due to failure of the people in the pews to accomodate each other. I don't believe this is solvable, even in principle, by the church music staff. Guys:

One last thing. I’m not making excuses for old guys of my generation who check out on church (or go to some other local congregation) just because they don’t like “this modern music”.

What I’m saying is that independent of style: whether it is disco, hip-hop, Gregorian chants, Reggae, industrial rock, acid rock, soft rock, Bach Cantatas, or stuff from the Broadman Hymnal I believe the key thing about music for congregational singing is that it should focus on both (a) being relatively simple to learn and sing, and (b) have words with “thelogical content”.

Both requirements (a) and (b) for congregational singing are transgenerational. I believe a lot of the so-called “culture wars” with music in church are a waste of time because the music being fought over does not meet requirements (a) and (b) independent of its style. If you exclude music that doesn’t make the cut then you don’t have to fight over it. As a side benefit, people of all ages will actually be able to sing the congregational music and benefit from it.

There will still be some residual “culture wars” going on which I believe are due to failure of the people in the pews to accomodate each other. I don’t believe this is solvable, even in principle, by the church music staff.

]]> By: Jon http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/05/15/the-return-of-the-curmudgeon-disney-world-worship-part-2-musical-disproportionality/comment-page-1/#comment-368 Jon Tue, 19 May 2009 11:31:07 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=681#comment-368 Dr. Nelson, Thanks for these great reminders of what we should be doing in our corporate services. It is far too easy to aim for catchy tunes and leave solid biblical truth. Hymns were used to teach theology because the people were illiterate. Many in churches today are biblically illiterate, and so the need for theological songs is as strong as ever! If they wear the outfits in August, no one can post pictures on Twitter! Dr. Nelson,

Thanks for these great reminders of what we should be doing in our corporate services. It is far too easy to aim for catchy tunes and leave solid biblical truth. Hymns were used to teach theology because the people were illiterate. Many in churches today are biblically illiterate, and so the need for theological songs is as strong as ever!

If they wear the outfits in August, no one can post pictures on Twitter!

]]> By: David Nelson http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/05/15/the-return-of-the-curmudgeon-disney-world-worship-part-2-musical-disproportionality/comment-page-1/#comment-359 David Nelson Mon, 18 May 2009 20:36:42 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=681#comment-359 There is no doubt, as several of you point out, that what the church sings is formative with respect to the church's theology. The church has understood this for centuries, but it is true that we sometime forget and sometimes ignore the significance of this reality. I plan to offer some insights into the selection of music for the congregation in a future post that I hope will be helpful. Ed, actually I was hoping you could be our guest "song leader" for our Faculty Workshop in August. I was able to get a deal on Stryper's old unitards on eBay and thought you, Hutchinson, and Ashford could sport them that week. There is no doubt, as several of you point out, that what the church sings is formative with respect to the church’s theology. The church has understood this for centuries, but it is true that we sometime forget and sometimes ignore the significance of this reality. I plan to offer some insights into the selection of music for the congregation in a future post that I hope will be helpful.

Ed, actually I was hoping you could be our guest “song leader” for our Faculty Workshop in August. I was able to get a deal on Stryper’s old unitards on eBay and thought you, Hutchinson, and Ashford could sport them that week.

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