Comments on: Molinists and Calvinists: Locked in a Wordy Embrace with the Same Gargoyle http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/12/23/molinists-and-calvinists-locked-in-a-wordy-embrace-with-the-same-gargoyle/ Sat, 11 Feb 2012 17:32:23 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Tony Auxier http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/12/23/molinists-and-calvinists-locked-in-a-wordy-embrace-with-the-same-gargoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-16682 Tony Auxier Sun, 23 May 2010 01:42:20 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=1491#comment-16682 As far as pelagianism in the pews goes, I think that Robert Picarilli defines it better in Grace, Faith Free Will. He describes most Southern Baptists as Sub-Calvinists. They have an Arminian theology with a belief that any profession of faith makes one a believer who is "secure." This explains the large number of Southern Baptists who have made a profession of faith, been baptized, and dropped out of sight. They insist they are secure, although their lives deny the gospel has the power to in any way change them. It also explains why most SBC churches are radically opposed to church discipline. Dr. Keathley's book is a fantastic read. Too many people try to trap God in time and make Him think in a linear fashion. I have always been a fan of J. L. Dagg, but have problems with limited atonement and irresistable grace. The logical conclusion that Calvinism makes God the author of evil has always been an obstacle, too. Thank you for an excellent book and an interesting approach to those dilemmas. As far as pelagianism in the pews goes, I think that Robert Picarilli defines it better in Grace, Faith Free Will. He describes most Southern Baptists as Sub-Calvinists. They have an Arminian theology with a belief that any profession of faith makes one a believer who is “secure.” This explains the large number of Southern Baptists who have made a profession of faith, been baptized, and dropped out of sight. They insist they are secure, although their lives deny the gospel has the power to in any way change them. It also explains why most SBC churches are radically opposed to church discipline.
Dr. Keathley’s book is a fantastic read. Too many people try to trap God in time and make Him think in a linear fashion. I have always been a fan of J. L. Dagg, but have problems with limited atonement and irresistable grace. The logical conclusion that Calvinism makes God the author of evil has always been an obstacle, too. Thank you for an excellent book and an interesting approach to those dilemmas.

]]> By: Keith http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/12/23/molinists-and-calvinists-locked-in-a-wordy-embrace-with-the-same-gargoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-12191 Keith Wed, 03 Feb 2010 02:58:53 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=1491#comment-12191 By the way - I will soon be 44 and have been a member of several Southern Baptist Churches since I was saved at 9 years old. My father has been a NC SBC pastor since I was 5. Just for some clarification of the previous post. By the way – I will soon be 44 and have been a member of several Southern Baptist Churches since I was saved at 9 years old. My father has been a NC SBC pastor since I was 5. Just for some clarification of the previous post.

]]> By: Keith http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/12/23/molinists-and-calvinists-locked-in-a-wordy-embrace-with-the-same-gargoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-12187 Keith Wed, 03 Feb 2010 02:15:48 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=1491#comment-12187 Speaking for those in the pew, we know what we believe - and who we believe. Our belief has nothing to do with "roses" and "tulips." It has EVERYTHING to do with The Rose Of Sharon. After one semester of seminary and seeing the discussions that go on in blogs and such, I can understand why alot of those in the pew think that seminaries "ruin a good preacher." We just simply take the Bible for what it says. God is the creator of this world and all humanity. HE says nothing about choosing between several possible worlds. HE gave humans the ability to choose freely for themselves, hence the fall of humanity and the fact that every single person is born in sin. JESUS is the ONLY way of salvation, and if ANYONE dies without accepting HIM as LORD and SAVIOR, they spend eternity in Hell and ultimately with satan in the lake of fire. That is what the average rural NC Baptist pew sitter believes. It is not Calvinism, it is not Molinism, it is not any "ism." It is the pure gospel so simple and plain that a child can understand it. I never heard of the "tulip" of Calvin until about 2 years ago in a theology class in my undergrad. I had never heard of Molinism until Dr. Keathley's book and his "roses." Now I know fully why they say "ignorance is bliss." I think I was better off not knowing about either one. Neither is totally wrong, but neither is near as correct as the Bible. Why do we need to be playing in flowers anyway? All are born in sin and without hope(Romans 3:23). JESUS is the only way of salvation(John 14:6). Everything else is just man-made. Speaking for those in the pew, we know what we believe – and who we believe. Our belief has nothing to do with “roses” and “tulips.” It has EVERYTHING to do with The Rose Of Sharon. After one semester of seminary and seeing the discussions that go on in blogs and such, I can understand why alot of those in the pew think that seminaries “ruin a good preacher.” We just simply take the Bible for what it says. God is the creator of this world and all humanity. HE says nothing about choosing between several possible worlds. HE gave humans the ability to choose freely for themselves, hence the fall of humanity and the fact that every single person is born in sin. JESUS is the ONLY way of salvation, and if ANYONE dies without accepting HIM as LORD and SAVIOR, they spend eternity in Hell and ultimately with satan in the lake of fire. That is what the average rural NC Baptist pew sitter believes. It is not Calvinism, it is not Molinism, it is not any “ism.” It is the pure gospel so simple and plain that a child can understand it. I never heard of the “tulip” of Calvin until about 2 years ago in a theology class in my undergrad. I had never heard of Molinism until Dr. Keathley’s book and his “roses.” Now I know fully why they say “ignorance is bliss.” I think I was better off not knowing about either one. Neither is totally wrong, but neither is near as correct as the Bible. Why do we need to be playing in flowers anyway? All are born in sin and without hope(Romans 3:23). JESUS is the only way of salvation(John 14:6). Everything else is just man-made.

]]> By: Stephen Roberts http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/12/23/molinists-and-calvinists-locked-in-a-wordy-embrace-with-the-same-gargoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-11112 Stephen Roberts Fri, 01 Jan 2010 00:54:49 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=1491#comment-11112 Yes, Peter my comment about Pelagianism in the pew was an overstatement. But it would be safer to say "many" Baptist don't know what they believe or why. Yes, Peter my comment about Pelagianism in the pew was an overstatement. But it would be safer to say “many” Baptist don’t know what they believe or why.

]]> By: peter lumpkins http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/12/23/molinists-and-calvinists-locked-in-a-wordy-embrace-with-the-same-gargoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-11034 peter lumpkins Wed, 30 Dec 2009 03:35:11 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=1491#comment-11034 Thanks for the responses. It's said (by Professor Jerry Walls, I think) that when famed Reformed thinker, A. Plantinga rehearsed his free-will defense, many tagged him a "Molinist." Indicative to his response was, what in the world is a Molinist? My point, of course, is obvious. As for pelagianism rampant in SB pews, I haven't the faintest idea about that. Grace, all. With that, I am... Peter Thanks for the responses. It’s said (by Professor Jerry Walls, I think) that when famed Reformed thinker, A. Plantinga rehearsed his free-will defense, many tagged him a “Molinist.” Indicative to his response was, what in the world is a Molinist? My point, of course, is obvious.

As for pelagianism rampant in SB pews, I haven’t the faintest idea about that.

Grace, all.
With that, I am…
Peter

]]> By: Nathan Finn http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/12/23/molinists-and-calvinists-locked-in-a-wordy-embrace-with-the-same-gargoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-11025 Nathan Finn Wed, 30 Dec 2009 00:14:01 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=1491#comment-11025 Dr. Keathley, I always find that you are one magnanimous Molinist. I hope I'm a charitable Calvinist. Let's both pray that our friend Dr. Ashford will remain an affable Amyraldian. It's fun wandering the kingdom with you and all the rest of the gang. You and Mrs. Keathley have a Happy New Year. NAF Dr. Keathley, I always find that you are one magnanimous Molinist. I hope I’m a charitable Calvinist. Let’s both pray that our friend Dr. Ashford will remain an affable Amyraldian. It’s fun wandering the kingdom with you and all the rest of the gang. You and Mrs. Keathley have a Happy New Year.

NAF

]]> By: Ken Keathley http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/12/23/molinists-and-calvinists-locked-in-a-wordy-embrace-with-the-same-gargoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-11017 Ken Keathley Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:43:29 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=1491#comment-11017 Yes, the Keathleys had a blessed Christmas, and I trust the same is true for the Finns. As for not being far from the kingdom, that brings to mind an analogy to eschatology. I see the development of the salvation and sovereignty issue as somewhat analogous to the way premillennialism has morphed over the last century. When I was young (yes, that was quite a while back) if a person embraced the notion of a literal 1000 year reign, then it could be assumed he also imbibed in classic dispensationalism. That is not so today. The typical current premillennialist (even those at DTS) hold to an eschatology that Schofield or Larkin would hardly recognize. The same thing has happened and is happening in Reformed theology. Dort was snapshot of where Reformed theology was at the turn of the 17th century. And the motto "semper reformandum" is true. You are wandering around in the kingdom with me. Happy New Year, Dr Finn! Yes, the Keathleys had a blessed Christmas, and I trust the same is true for the Finns.

As for not being far from the kingdom, that brings to mind an analogy to eschatology. I see the development of the salvation and sovereignty issue as somewhat analogous to the way premillennialism has morphed over the last century. When I was young (yes, that was quite a while back) if a person embraced the notion of a literal 1000 year reign, then it could be assumed he also imbibed in classic dispensationalism. That is not so today. The typical current premillennialist (even those at DTS) hold to an eschatology that Schofield or Larkin would hardly recognize.

The same thing has happened and is happening in Reformed theology. Dort was snapshot of where Reformed theology was at the turn of the 17th century. And the motto “semper reformandum” is true. You are wandering around in the kingdom with me. Happy New Year, Dr Finn!

]]> By: Nathan Finn http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/12/23/molinists-and-calvinists-locked-in-a-wordy-embrace-with-the-same-gargoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-10981 Nathan Finn Mon, 28 Dec 2009 16:02:27 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=1491#comment-10981 You are not far from the kingdom, Dr. Keathley. ;-) I hope the Keathley's had a blessed Christmas. NAF You are not far from the kingdom, Dr. Keathley. ;-) I hope the Keathley’s had a blessed Christmas.

NAF

]]> By: Ken Keathley http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/12/23/molinists-and-calvinists-locked-in-a-wordy-embrace-with-the-same-gargoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-10979 Ken Keathley Mon, 28 Dec 2009 15:38:58 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=1491#comment-10979 Peter and Stephen, I have a strong affinity for Reformed theology, and consider Charles Spurgeon and Andrew Fuller to be my heroes. However, like Stephen points out, there are many of us who remain unconvinced about TULIP. Many of us live in 3- to 4-point territory (3-point for me: T,U, and P). Molinism is a model which demonstrates that we are not merely inconsistent Calvinists. Rather it provides a coherent model for holding to the profound truth that choices, actions, and decisions are both certain and contingent. Merry Christmas! kk Peter and Stephen, I have a strong affinity for Reformed theology, and consider Charles Spurgeon and Andrew Fuller to be my heroes. However, like Stephen points out, there are many of us who remain unconvinced about TULIP. Many of us live in 3- to 4-point territory (3-point for me: T,U, and P). Molinism is a model which demonstrates that we are not merely inconsistent Calvinists. Rather it provides a coherent model for holding to the profound truth that choices, actions, and decisions are both certain and contingent.

Merry Christmas!

kk

]]> By: Ken Keathley http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/12/23/molinists-and-calvinists-locked-in-a-wordy-embrace-with-the-same-gargoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-10978 Ken Keathley Mon, 28 Dec 2009 15:31:27 +0000 http://betweenthetimes.com/?p=1491#comment-10978 Ross, good to hear from you! Hope all is well in Waco. Yes, I expect some debate about the way I use the term "monergism." However, I mean it in the sense of 1 Cor 15:10--every good choice and action you and I make is the working of divine grace. Yet because we are the source of our respective sins, and because the ability to not sin is truly available to us (1 Cor 10:13), then this monergistic work must in some sense be resistible. One's understanding of grace's efficacy must be able to account, not only for our conversion, but also for our sanctification. It must contend that all merit belongs to God while all culpability belongs to us. Blessings, kk Ross, good to hear from you! Hope all is well in Waco.

Yes, I expect some debate about the way I use the term “monergism.” However, I mean it in the sense of 1 Cor 15:10–every good choice and action you and I make is the working of divine grace. Yet because we are the source of our respective sins, and because the ability to not sin is truly available to us (1 Cor 10:13), then this monergistic work must in some sense be resistible. One’s understanding of grace’s efficacy must be able to account, not only for our conversion, but also for our sanctification. It must contend that all merit belongs to God while all culpability belongs to us.

Blessings,

kk

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